Thread: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup

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  1. #101 ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Todays update;

    Still waiting for the rear springs.

    Went to set up the steering....centering the steering wheel by adjusting the drag link....and was VERY uncomfortable with the length of the drag link. I am trying to use the Rusty's tie-rod conversion steering. The problem was that there was very little threaded tie rod end left in the drag link when it was adjusted properly. WTF??? So I called them up, and they are sending me the proper length drag link NC. Apparantly, I got a 27 1/2" drag link designed for an XJ, and I need the 29" link.

    The punch list is getting pretty short before I take this thing out on the trails.
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    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  2. #102 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    that thing is just freakin' awesome

    I really dig the stance & can't wait to hear a trail report specially since i'm building mine pretty much the same way (4.5", 33's, etc')
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  3. #103 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Thanks. I'll keep you posted.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  4. #104 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Member Rubber Chuck's Avatar
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    Hey Steve......Your Jeep is lookin AWESOME !!!!
    Chuck MacLellan

    www.mudrivermotorsports.com



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  5. #105 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Chuck
    Hey Steve......Your Jeep is lookin AWESOME !!!!
    Thanks Chuck. I should get one of those "Paragon Boo-Boo" stickers for the front bumper.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  6. #106 ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    I noticed that one of the things the front tires were rubbing on was the infamous charcoal canister. As others have mentioned, this will fit sideways into the same area it's originally mounter in. Here are some pics:

    Before:

    http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/att...1&d=1168877101
    Last edited by Skyline; 01-15-2007 at 11:09 PM.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  7. #107 ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    The easiest way to get the hoses re-routed was to open up the hole for the hoses a bit. To get at this area, I needed to remove the grill, front bumper, and the big black plastic facia the headlights are mounted in, along with the headlights and turn signals. It's all actually much easier than it sounds...no more than 5 min. I needed to lengthen one of the smaller lines to the charcoal canister, so i cut the plastic tubing inside the engine compartment, and spliced in some fuel line. I was having a bit of trouble getting the canister in place...it looked like it would fit in the area sideways, but would not go. I had to remove the bolt holding the diagonal brace right behind the canister to get just a tiny bit more room. Once the canister was in place, I could re-fasten that bolt. I also needed to unbolt the fog light temoprarily to get it out of the way while the canister was being installed. I just used zip ties to hold it in place.

    After remounting the charcoal canister:
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    Last edited by Skyline; 01-16-2007 at 10:43 AM.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  8. #108 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member corrupt143's Avatar
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    Thanks for that info Steve. Ive been wanting to move that for awhile now and just hadnt decided what to do. Ive now made up my mind.
    Chris- 97 ZJ, 4.0, some lift, black tires and some Autozone valve caps.
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  9. #109 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Anytime.

    If you look at the "before" picture, you can notice the whole canister is kind of mud colored, but the rear edge is black...that's rubber dust. Given the heavy tread lugs on my Mud Rovers, this thing wasn't going to last long if I didn't do something. Now it's completely out of the way.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  10. #110 Do I need a dropped pitman arm???? 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Since I have Kevin's track bar conversion, I know generally a dropped pitman arm is not recommedned. But over the past few days I decided to take off the Rusty's crossover steering using and return to the stock V8 steering, (mostly because I wasn't happy with the way the SS was twisting around, and getting mashed against the track bar). The end of the drag link is now right on top of the SS bolt and the bottom of the sway bar disco. I guess I could move the axle back a bit, but the tire seems to be causing rubbing a bit both in front and back just a now, so moving it back might cause some real problems with rubbing in the pinch seem area. I think the axle is in an OK place in terms of centering the tire. Seems to me a dropped pitman arm might help. Take a look at these pics and see what you guys think:
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    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  11. #111 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    Hey Steve...How's it going? I remmy a phone conversation you and I had awhile back where we were both bitchin about Bump Steer. I talked to Kevin about a dropped Pitman Arm and he advised me in a very strong way not to do it.....it will most definitely cause bump steer. I know my dl bolt is real close to the stabilizer......but it is a non-issue. I don't know if moving the axle would help...I would think you would have to rotate the housing???
    Chuck MacLellan

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  12. #112 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Chuck
    Hey Steve...How's it going? I remmy a phone conversation you and I had awhile back where we were both bitchin about Bump Steer. I talked to Kevin about a dropped Pitman Arm and he advised me in a very strong way not to do it.....it will most definitely cause bump steer. I know my dl bolt is real close to the stabilizer......but it is a non-issue. I don't know if moving the axle would help...I would think you would have to rotate the housing???
    The end of my DL actually hits the SS bolt, and that is definately not a safe condition.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  13. #113 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Member Rubber Chuck's Avatar
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    How's your pinion angle? Do you have room to move it at all? Adjusting it down may solve your problems.
    The other thing I thought of......any chance your draglink is bent? I lifted a rubicon this fall and couldn't turn the steering wheel after lifting the front.....turns out it was the same situation you are in....and the dl was bent. Before I figured it out...we did try a dropped arm and it didn't help.
    New DL and it was good to go.
    Chuck MacLellan

    www.mudrivermotorsports.com



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  14. #114 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Chuck
    How's your pinion angle? Do you have room to move it at all? Adjusting it down may solve your problems.
    The other thing I thought of......any chance your draglink is bent? I lifted a rubicon this fall and couldn't turn the steering wheel after lifting the front.....turns out it was the same situation you are in....and the dl was bent. Before I figured it out...we did try a dropped arm and it didn't help.
    New DL and it was good to go.
    I don't think the DL is bent, so I guess I need to rotate the axle a bit down. Actually, that should help the road stability a bit, although the trade off may be more vibration.

    Thanks for the advice, Chuck,

    Steve
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  15. #115 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    Skyline,
    Something I ran into when I installed the RE drop brackets on mine. The brackets also move the axle forward just over an inch. When I first installed them, I had adj LCAs which when screwed in all the way were about 1/2" longer than the front arms. This caused the same thing you are dealing with. Of note, is on short arms, under compression, that axle is going to shift forward-into the draglink a little more.

    I ended up installing my OEM arms with the drop brackets to resolve it. Not sure if you got it fixed, yet, but you may consider spinning your adj arms in a turn and check the results.

    another option is to get another "button head" bolt like the OEM swaybar link bolts. Use that in place of the hex head bolt.

    that ZJ is lookin sharp.
    Last edited by b1pig; 01-26-2007 at 05:02 AM.
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  16. #116 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1pig
    Skyline,
    Something I ran into when I installed the RE drop brackets on mine. The brackets also move the axle forward just over an inch. When I first installed them, I had adj LCAs which when screwed in all the way were about 1/2" longer than the front arms. This caused the same thing you are dealing with. Of note, is on short arms, under compression, that axle is going to shift forward-into the draglink a little more.

    I ended up installing my OEM arms with the drop brackets to resolve it. Not sure if you got it fixed, yet, but you may consider spinning your adj arms in a turn and check the results.

    another option is to get another "button head" bolt like the OEM swaybar link bolts. Use that in place of the hex head bolt.

    that ZJ is lookin sharp.
    Thanks.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  17. #117 Problems with Tie Rod Clearance 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    OK, so I tilted the axle down by retracting the upper arms about 1/2". I am now clearing the SS bolt, but the sway bar mount is still a real problem. There's no way I want to move the axle back enough to clear this. Either the drag link must drop, (dropped pitman arm) or the sway bar end mounts must be extended. I know JKS makes 1" and 2" extended mounts, it's a cut and weld proposition. Not only that, if I extend the sway bar mounts, I'll probably need to get shorter JKS discos, as mine are adjusted all the way in at present.
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    Last edited by Skyline; 01-28-2007 at 02:23 PM.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  18. #118 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    Well if you put the Rustys kit back on now, with the tie rod being straight across, would it now miss the sway bar?
    Chris- 97 ZJ, 4.0, some lift, black tires and some Autozone valve caps.
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  19. #119 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    if he put the rustys stuff back on it would probably clear....but then he'd have the rusty's stuff back on, and evidently thats a problem too! i vote for moving the sway bar brackets and shortening the jks discos (if such a thing is possible)




    Mike
    2000 xj------lifted locked and being built.........
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  20. #120 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
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    Skyline, you SHOULD be able to mount that disco on the OUTSIDE of the bracket. see if it'll work that way.
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  21. #121 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corrupt143
    Well if you put the Rustys kit back on now, with the tie rod being straight across, would it now miss the sway bar?
    I did not have the clearance problems with the Rusty's. There were however, a couple of problems with the Rusty's set up. The most serious is that the tie rod end movement allow the whole thing to trist around a bit. When it twists, the steering stabilizer was getting pinched and crushed. This is also causing some resistance in the steering, which is not all that safe. I'm using an OME SS, which has an outer sleeve...so maybe if I used a SS with no outer sleeve, this could be less of a problem.

    Another issue with the Rusty's set up is that precise alignment is not possible. Since the drag link attaches to the tie rod, the tie rod can not rotate. This means that toe is adjustable in 1 degree increments by rotating the driver side tie rod end 360 degrees. So my choice was 1/2 degree toed in or 1/2 degree toed out. Not the 0 degrees I really wanted. I chose slightly toed in.

    This whole set up seemed to bump-steer quite a bit more than the stock set up, but then again I have not tried the stock set up with the lift.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  22. #122 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member corrupt143's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline
    I did not have the clearance problems with the Rusty's. There were however, a couple of problems with the Rusty's set up. The most serious is that the tie rod end movement allow the whole thing to trist around a bit. When it twists, the steering stabilizer was getting pinched and crushed. This is also causing some resistance in the steering, which is not all that safe. I'm using an OME SS, which has an outer sleeve...so maybe if I used a SS with no outer sleeve, this could be less of a problem.
    Now I understand, for some reason, I was still thinking it was a clearance problem like with the stock set up.

    Another issue with the Rusty's set up is that precise alignment is not possible. Since the drag link attaches to the tie rod, the tie rod can not rotate. This means that toe is adjustable in 1 degree increments by rotating the driver side tie rod end 360 degrees. So my choice was 1/2 degree toed in or 1/2 degree toed out. Not the 0 degrees I really wanted. I chose slightly toed in.
    I hadnt thought about that. Without that other conection before where the DL coneects it looses some adjustability. Thanks, this info changes how I was gonna build my steering set up. Thats twice youve helped me with my build. Hopefully someday, I can return the favor.

    This whole set up seemed to bump-steer quite a bit more than the stock set up, but then again I have not tried the stock set up with the lift.
    Now this surprises me. I would think this wouldve been due to the pinion angle you were running with it previously and the short arms. With the 2 knuckes connected together in a fixed position, like with the Rustys, the wheels never changed toe specs through the cycle, except with the twisting of the axle. The stock inverted Y changes the toe with each bump. And then theres always the castor rotation. Theres a sweet spot there somewhere, you just have to find it. This is why LA's are so much better than SA's at higher lifts, less twisting motion of the axle.
    Chris- 97 ZJ, 4.0, some lift, black tires and some Autozone valve caps.
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  23. #123 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corrupt143
    Now I understand, for some reason, I was still thinking it was a clearance problem like with the stock set up.

    I hadnt thought about that. Without that other conection before where the DL coneects it looses some adjustability. Thanks, this info changes how I was gonna build my steering set up. Thats twice youve helped me with my build. Hopefully someday, I can return the favor.

    Now this surprises me. I would think this wouldve been due to the pinion angle you were running with it previously and the short arms. With the 2 knuckes connected together in a fixed position, like with the Rustys, the wheels never changed toe specs through the cycle, except with the twisting of the axle. The stock inverted Y changes the toe with each bump. And then theres always the castor rotation. Theres a sweet spot there somewhere, you just have to find it. This is why LA's are so much better than SA's at higher lifts, less twisting motion of the axle.
    Well, you're certainly are correct about bump steer, and in theory, the Rusty's set up should not bump steer as much. But when I had this set up on before the lift, (I think I had a bad track bar joint,) I had tremendous DW. With this same bad track bar, the stock steering was fine, not even a hint of DW. The Rusty's set up seems to be more prone to DW and transmitting vibrations through the steering. It also seemed to follow uneven pavement more. I had no DW with all the new lift components, and the Rusty's set up, but there's still more sensitivity to bumps. So maybe it's not really 'bump steer' I'm feeling, but it sure feels like it. Keep in mind that it is possible for a car with a fixed side to side tie rod to have bump steer problems. It relates to a whole complicated set of suspension geometry issues.

    I decided to try a drop pitman arm, to see if that helps the clearance problems, and will allow me to see how the stock steering set up will do with the lift. I should have that by Wednesday, so I'll post an update later this week. It kind of makes you wonder why the Jeep has that funky inverted 'y' steering in the first place; there must be a reason...they must have found out that it works better.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  24. #124 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b1pig
    Skyline, you SHOULD be able to mount that disco on the OUTSIDE of the bracket. see if it'll work that way.
    I don't think that would work. The links would be at a pretty good angle, and I think not having the swaybay links straight up and down would reduce the effectiveness of the front bar significantly. I think it would also be a problem to get the lower ends on and off.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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  25. #125 Re: Need help on a budget ZJ buildup 
    Senior Member Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zjinprogress
    if he put the rustys stuff back on it would probably clear....but then he'd have the rusty's stuff back on, and evidently thats a problem too! i vote for moving the sway bar brackets and shortening the jks discos (if such a thing is possible)




    Mike
    Certainly possible, but requires a bit of cutting and welding. There are shorter JKS discos than the ones I have....I have the ones designed for 4.5"+ of lift, so they are adjusted all the way in. And the extended tabs are available. As stated above, I'm going to try the dropped arm next.
    '96 GC Laredo V8; Tom Woods front U-Joint Shaft; Kevins sliders; 4.5" RE springs; Kevin's track bar conversion; JKS short arms, discos, and track bars; Pro Comp 16x8 mags with 305/70/16 Mud rovers.

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