5 speed in a WJ

[AgitatedPancake]

I'm having serious issues with my second 545RFE in my dub and I want it gone. I know dakotas got the 5-speed NV3500 (an NV3550 with one-peice bellhousing from what I've read?) behind the 4.7, and I've seen a few swaps from the 545RFE in those dakotas. I was also looking at the NV4500 as the low first gear ratio would be really nice, can you mate the 4500 to the 4.7 using factory parts? I'm not afraid of the fab work involved with the pedals and shifter, what worry me are the electronics. I thought about taking the whole engine harness and PCM from a dakota, but I think I'd have too many issues mating it to the body harness. Can tools like the SCT tuner be used to completely revamp the PCM to stop looking for the automatic transmission (as well as other things such as the hydraulic fan and the ABS system)?

[SaturnICL]

I have no clue as to why you would want to go to a Stick Shift Are you running something for the speedo pickup so the trany will act right? I am having some issues with my jeep after the axle swap due to the PCM not getting the info it needs... Remedying it this weekend!

[dp96zj]

Originally Posted by SaturnICL

I have no clue as to why you would want to go to a Stick Shift

Originally Posted by AgitatedPancake

I'm having serious issues with my second 545RFE in my dub and I want it gone.

???

[AgitatedPancake]

Originally Posted by SaturnICL

I have no clue as to why you would want to go to a Stick Shift Are you running something for the speedo pickup so the trany will act right? I am having some issues with my jeep after the axle swap due to the PCM not getting the info it needs... Remedying it this weekend!

Stick is way more fun to drive. I've been battling my buddies over stick vs auto since the beginning. Everyone I wheel with wheels a manual, I'm the only auto and I've defended it for years.
1) Reliability
2) Simplicity
3) Control (I want to be able to put my foot in the throttle in any gear I want whether it's 4000RPM's or 1500. Snow wheeling an auto compared to a manual sucks ASS. Manuals can rock it if they get stuck, and launch in different gears if they wish.
4) I also think I can pull way better gas mileage out of the manual than the auto can, it just doesn't know how to drive the jeep.

No I didn't fix the speedo problem. When I lost the speedo with the rear axle I could feel a SLIGHT change in the transmission, but hardly apparent, and it was like that until this problem. I read about people that just ignored the lack of speedometer and things worked out OK for them. Maybe I got unlucky? Anyways I just want to be done with the auto's if this one is indeed dead.

[paulkeith]

After the 42re in my '96, i swore off slushboxes like the plague and said I'd never EVER go back.

After 4 years in a 6spd F250 in Atlanta, I actually started to get tired of manual trannies. I picked up the 5.9 and realized that I don't hate auto trannies, I just hated auto trannies with underpowered engines and poor gearing. Even this 46re doesn't behave exactly the way I would want it to, but it is LIGHYEARS ahead of that POS 4.0/42re.

For the diesel, I'd love to have an auto just for the DD improvements and building boost right off the line. That's not really pertinent to this discussion though.

For wheeling, I think autos are hard to argue against, so long as you've got good gearing. Ability to powerbrake and modulate tire movement while still holding position with the brakes, etc, is hard to give up, unless you install a hand throttle or something similar...

What about:
1) starter location vs exhaust routing - does it switch sides?0
2) shifter location inside the body
3) room on firewall for clutch master - i know ZJs were stamped for the m/c location...are WJs?
4) can the PCM be flashed to eliminate auto tranny inputs and outputs - seems likely?
5) crossmember location and dshaft lengths?

I think most of your beefs could be solved with a healthy auto, shift kit, RMVB (does it even exist for the 545RFE?), good cooler, and most of all, proper gearing in your axles.

I also think you should find a way to get your speed input working. I wouldn't be surprised if that's not a lot of the problem.

Good luck, I'd like to see this pulled off cleanly.

Paul

[AgitatedPancake]

This WJ is never going to see sheer DD duty for years on end ever again, so I'm not worried about getting tired of the manual. I want the manual for the fun factor, I mean its my toy!

I am no longer a fan of powerbraking autos, I've had bad luck with it. I snapped a CV on the stock D30 from powerbraking, and I ripped the front driveshaft out of its straps at the axle once from powerbraking. Both times I started very easy on the brake, and was getting ZERO difference in any traction as I upped the brake pressure...until POP.

1) The starter location does switch sides, but it's currently tucked up with the exhaust so it would switch to the other side. The only thing I'd have to worry about is the drivers side starter contacting my driveshaft since it's on that side. There is also a NV3550 that came in wranglers that is apparently the same transmission but with a removeable bellhousing compared to the 3500's one peice design. That may have a different location for the starter.

2) I don't think the shift location would be terrible, but I ain't skurred to modify things as I need to.

3) The WJ's don't have the punchout as far as I know, so I would have to do some work here, but I also have a completely useless ABS system taking up a lot of room on this side of the engine bay, another thing I want to get out of there for space.

4) PCM reflash does seem likely. I have an e-mail out to a reputable tuner asking him this question, waiting for a response.

5) Crossmember can change as necessary, and I expected different driveshaft lengths, either going to find a different factory application to fit or have them made. Maybe I should put dual cases behind it...


And while a healthy auto would definately be more reliable and predictable, I really miss the fun factor of the manual! There is a shift kit out for the 545RFE, I have a hell of a cooler now that kept the temps arond 160*. I have 4.56"s in the axles which is plenty of gear for the tires, I can use overdrive on the freeways until I come to significant grades.

Speed input is definately in the works also.

[IndyZJ]

A lot of good info here:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=786015

It looks doable, but it will be a ton of work and probably more $$ than building a stout auto.

[AgitatedPancake]

damn man, thanks for that thread! I had seen it before on pirate but completely blanked on it.

Actually that thread shows it seems to be less work than I thought! He bought a 5 speed dakota PCM, stripped the grand cherokee harness and got it all to work together without issue. The dakotas don't have sentry key like the WJ does so that's not an issue also. The second issue he ran into is the stock exhaust manifold dumping into the starter. I just looked under my jeep and it looks like if I can slightly modify my stock manifold's output angle, you should be able to squeeze a downpipe between the starter and the Wj's unibody rail

It's starting to excite me a little bit...

[IndyZJ]

No problem. It looks like he cut the WJ TCM out of the harness and wired it all up to the Dakota computer. I can't believe that it all works without any programming and he's only getting emissions codes. I think the only real conscern as to whether or not it can be done now is the front driveshaft clearance with the starter, especially with your HP44.

[Jeeptech01]

Uh-oh...

[AgitatedPancake]

I have a LP44, waggy style. I checked that out too, and it looks like I'll have plenty of clearance. He had a super low belly height with a low slung motor, I don't think I'll run into near the issues he did there but I would need the bellhousing to know for sure.

[IndyZJ]

Originally Posted by AgitatedPancake

I have a LP44, waggy style.

My bad. That would make it a lot easier to package everything. I think it could be done relatively inexpensively, especially if you use as many JY parts as possible. It will still cost quite a bit and be a lot of work and time tracking everything down. It won't be cheap or easy, but it looks doable and the 4.7 would be a fun engine with a stick.

[AgitatedPancake]

Using car-part just to check on things, I've found NV3500's (which is a one peice bellhousing with the correct pattern already) local enough for under $500. I found the computer I need for $150 local enough, or $90 if I can get another place to ship it. Exhaust manifolds I can come by also.

[IndyZJ]

Don't forget the flywheel, pilot bushing/ bearing, clutch assembly and misc. pieces, starter, clutch pedal setup, shifter, and driveshaft mods unless you're lucky enough that the transmissions are the same length. I think the pirate thread has a list of the parts other than the clutch pedal assembly.

[AgitatedPancake]

I was just pretending they don't exist.

No I know about those things too, those will definately nickel and dime me to death

[adam99wj]

get it done asap so i can see what i get myself into.. anyone know about strength issues of the nv3500's

[IndyZJ]

They're rated for 300 ft-lbs and a 7200 lb gvw. They were/ are used in a lot of 1/2 ton trucks with v8s and a lot of people say they're under rated. It shouldn't have any trouble in a Grand Cherokee, but I wouldn't make a habit of dropping the clutch at 5000 rpm or powershifting it.

[adam99wj]

Originally Posted by IndyZJ

They're rated for 300 ft-lbs and a 7200 lb gvw. They were/ are used in a lot of 1/2 ton trucks with v8s and a lot of people say they're under rated. It shouldn't have any trouble in a Grand Cherokee, but I wouldn't make a habit of dropping the clutch at 5000 rpm or powershifting it.

good to know!!... thanks

[AgitatedPancake]

Yeah they seem pretty stout, everyone says the 300 ft-lbs is pretty conservative. They also came with a nice 4:1 first gear, but some had a 3.5:1 first

And, only 110lbs with oil

[Jeeptech01]

What about the 6 speed used in later tj's?

[ATL ZJ]

Don't pussyfoot around with another light duty trans. Go nv4500 and be done with it.

I firmly believe that built, fully controllable automatics are better than manuals in almost every way, but to get an auto to that point takes some serious coin. Hence the manual in my rig.

[AgitatedPancake]

The only reason I haven't really put any major research into the NV4500 is the bellhousing. It came behind 5.2's and 5.9's, not the 4.7. I didn't see any adapters to make it fit in a relatively quick search I did, and all the ones I did see for other engines were $$$$. From what I've collected, the 4.7 uses the same bolt pattern as the 3.9 V6 though.

If it was feasable, I'd be all for it.

[IndyZJ]

I haven't seen any non-factory bellhousings for the 3.9/4.7. I wonder if you could drill and tap the 3.9 bellhousing for the 4500? If that wouldn't work, you should be able to make an adapter plate to go between the bellhousing and 4500. That and the initial cost of the 4500 could add quite a bit to the cost.

The 4500 is pretty huge compared to a 3500, so some massaging/ re-building of the trans tunnel might be needed, too.

I still think the 3500 would be plenty strong for a Grand, but it's hard to argue against the beef you get with the 4500 as long as it can be done without a shit ton of extra time, expense, and completely custom parts (and you don't mind double the weight of the trans itself).

[ratmonkey]

the 3.9 has the exact same bolt pattern for the transmission as a 5.9. if the 3.9 housing works on a 4.7 so will the nv4500 package.

the 4500 shifter is in a "shorter" position than the shifter on the 3500. the 3550 is further rearward than the 3500 as well iirc. in a zj, the 3550 would come up in the stock location, the 3500 comes up in the ash tray just about, and the 4500 comes up under the VIC if i remember. the 3550 is dimensionally about the same as the ax-15 it replaced.

[IndyZJ]

Originally Posted by ratmonkey

the 3.9 has the exact same bolt pattern for the transmission as a 5.9. if the 3.9 housing works on a 4.7 so will the nv4500 package.

Completely forgot about that - that would make it a bit easier than what I was thinking

I've read that not all 4.7 cranks are machined for a pilot bushing. If that's true, it could be another hurdle.