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View Full Version : Steering thread.. 1 ton / hydro, whatever



Trancezj
07-13-2004, 12:58 PM
Well there's really not one here, so why not. I dunno jack about it. How about write ups, pics whatever. Especially pics. I've been dragging my feet with doing this, but I'm kinda forced into it now because I broke my drag link in half. completely in half. Had to leave it on the trail and run to the bone yard to get a replacement. Part numbers would be good too. If we do the first one good, then there'll be no reason for any more that arent specific. I'm interested in looking at highsteers, and everything. What have you done? what do you wish you'd done differently?

Troy
07-13-2004, 09:22 PM
I decided on the high output PSCpowersteer TC to P pump conversion to replace my aging pump (http://www.pscpowersteer.com/Performance_Steering/Components/Off_Road/powersteeringpumpsPSC3.cfm).

Then I decided on full hydro using a ram, Parker orbital valve, 4" short steering column, and clevis mount from WMS (Wagoner Machine Shop - http://www.wagonermachine.com/hydraulic_steering.htm), piped with stainless steel braided hoses and connectors I bought from Jegs and Left Hander Chassis (http://www.lefthanderchassis.com/).

After all that I purchased a Permacool Thin Line tranny cooler with the -6 AN male fittings on it from some random place.

I haven't had time to install it yet, but here's a pic of some of the parts:

http://smallnet.homeip.net/gallery/albums/Hydraulic-Steering-Conversion/DSCF0057.sized.jpg

Costs so far:

Ram, parker orbital, steering column and clevis: $634
PSC TC to P pump conversion: $429
Fittings and hoses: $380
Tranny cooler: $50

I may have to do some sort of conversion to get rid of my stock air filter box because it looks like the P pump conversion may impede into the stock airbox location a little. I also need to see if the stock steering wheel will work (without the turn signals of course) or if I'll have to purchase a different one.

I'll post more when the job gets started.

ROKN ZJ
07-14-2004, 12:35 AM
I've done Hydro, with and with out histeer, so I can give you a little advise about that....

The best advice I can give you is if you do Full hydro on a 60front, is don't do histeer if you can avoid it. I've broken so many damn knuckles, and replacements are pretty friggen hard to come by. I eventually went with steel replacement knuckles made by TonyK (Off Pirate, can't remember who he sells through but you can PM him over there). With these I could easily weld reinforcements, hi-steerarms, and whatnot to them as opposed to stock cast knuckles.

There also debate over single or double ended rams, I've run both, and I guess the best I can say about that debate is that double ended rams don't seem to bend as easy. For my new rig I'm running Slickrock Offroad rams which can bee seen on www.rockstomper.com (here) (http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/fullhydro.htm)

Umm other than that I guess I'd just sugest making sure you WANT full hydro. I wouldnt' suggest it for someone who likes to drive on the streets (or fast like over dunes). You can get used to it, but its still not what I'd call safe. Also I wouldn't worry about getting a setup with return to center. Mine don't have return to center, and its not a bid deal. And I guess thats about the best I can do.

Trancezj
07-14-2004, 11:33 AM
I don't get why it's easier to break knuckles with high steer. I was thinking for now, I may just use 1 ton tierod ends and keep a normal steering setup. I can build the hydro assist off of that. I honestly think I'll be ok keeping it below the knuckle.

ROKN ZJ
07-15-2004, 12:07 AM
I don't get why it's easier to break knuckles with high steer. I was thinking for now, I may just use 1 ton tierod ends and keep a normal steering setup. I can build the hydro assist off of that. I honestly think I'll be ok keeping it below the knuckle.

It puts a LOT more stress at the top of the knuckle (Especially with a ram) which is the weakest part. Trust me. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. Everyone is doing it after all. But I broke three knuckles within one year, and as I said they aren't an easy part to come by for replacements.

Hal

JpRngr
07-15-2004, 02:34 AM
Hal,
You say no to hi-steer and full-hydro, what about hydro-assist? Have you heard of anyone breaking D60 knuckles on a regular basis using hydro-assist?

BTW, I'm glad I got a chance to talk to you about your experience with hydro at GSW(wished I would have sooner), cause I think I would have really disliked the Chalupa with full hydro if it actually had worked.


Corey

robselina
07-16-2004, 12:38 AM
my gloriously ghetto DIY hi-steer & ram assist:

http://www.nmt.edu/~rselina/hydro/hydro2.JPG

Tapping the box is cake, I'd HIGHLY suggest hydro-assist. I used a 2x8 ram from northern tool, but I think for the saginaw box, a 1.5x6 or 1.5x8 is probably better. Mine's a little slow.

hi-steer kicks ass, i don't hit half as much crap nowadays, I think it's well worth it and it'll fix a lot of your woes with the Y steering.

As for breaking knuckles, known guys to do it but only when they're running a freakin' 3" spacer under their stering arm.....

ROKN ZJ
07-16-2004, 01:31 PM
As for breaking knuckles, known guys to do it but only when they're running a freakin' 3" spacer under their stering arm.....

I used to say the same thing... If it were me, and I was setting up a full hydro setup, I'd get a good a dual ended ram, and set it up with no tirod at all... I'm just trying to save y'all the hassle I've gone through.

The Blue ZJ used to be setup with the ram pulling off the stock steering location of the knuckle, and the tierod mounted up high. I broke one knuckle, and then a couple weeks later the other knuckle. After that is when I swapped to a double ended ram with both ends attached at the regular steering points on the knuckle.

The buggy I compete in now has leaf springs so I can't run a double ended ram. So the ram is attached to the high-steer arm, and the tie rod is in the stock location. At the last comp I broke the knuckle the ram was attached to, so obviously this setup wasn't any better.

Now I was using FORD knuckles on both of these rigs, and I've heard that Ford knuckles are a bit weaker than Chevy knuckles so that coule be the problem, but regardless its a bitch to track down knuckles as spares, and its a Double Bitch to try and weld up the knuckle on the trail when you have no spare (And then nurse it slowly out), or a Triple BITCH to try and drive the rig up on the trailer when the knuckle has broken completly off, along with the wheel and tire. All of which I've had to do and this was three sperate occasions. So again it's my opinion, but I will never run hi-steer again... I guess it's like people who run stock axle shafts, and claim to never break them or break them once in a blue moon. You can run it that way, but I wouldn't...

As for hydro-assist, I don't know of anyone who's breaking knuckles with it. I would think steering assist in general would be easier on parts than full hydro, and thus less likely to break things IMO though...

Troy
07-16-2004, 01:46 PM
Double-ended rams are a lot harder to protect though unless you're running rockwells in which you can mount the ram behined the tubes.

ROKN ZJ
07-16-2004, 01:49 PM
hi-steer kicks ass, i don't hit half as much crap nowadays, I think it's well worth it and it'll fix a lot of your woes with the Y steering.


BTW I don't want you to think I'm picking on you, but why would having your setup save you from hitting stuff? Now you have a ram where your tirod was? I'd rather hit my tierod than the ram simply because a slight bend in a ram will screw it up (hard to steer, heat the fluid quickly, etc.)


Double-ended rams are a lot harder to protect though unless you're running rockwells in which you can mount the ram behined the tubes.

Most people who mount double ended rams build a plate to sit the ram on, and a basher bar in front of it to protect the ram. It doesn't sick out as much as it sounds when I describe it. I cant try and find a pic if you want...

Troy
07-16-2004, 02:07 PM
Double-ended rams are a lot harder to protect though unless you're running rockwells in which you can mount the ram behined the tubes.

Most people who mount double ended rams build a plate to sit the ram on, and a basher bar in front of it to protect the ram. It doesn't sick out as much as it sounds when I describe it. I cant try and find a pic if you want...

I understand the double-ram mount and protection but send me a pic of a low-profile one if you have one handy. I agree with your post to robselina... he definitely needs a skid to protect his ram.

ROKN ZJ
07-17-2004, 08:43 PM
I understand the double-ram mount and protection but send me a pic of a low-profile one if you have one handy. I agree with your post to robselina... he definitely needs a skid to protect his ram.

I can't find a good small one. Most of the comp guys use theirs kinda like a skid:

http://www.crawltech.com/albums/album139/Day1_116.sized.jpg

So I guess thats not exactly a low profile setup.

There's a couple other setups in this thread which are about as low profile as you can probably get...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200085&page=1&pp=25

Alaska ZJ
07-18-2004, 10:18 AM
http://www.akfabshop.com/alaskaoffroad/images/Tech/Hydro/ram.jpg

Hysteer version. Personally I will not be going hysteer for the reasons Rokn stated. But this system moves 45 in Terra tires around. Those tires have more tractio in mud than most tires have on slickrock...lol. Never broken knuckles....

Raacerx
07-19-2004, 04:11 AM
I decided to go with histeer on my dana 44. I have to snap more pics but I have not yet bought camera. Dana44 from a 77 Ford F150, high pinion.

Here is the recipe I used and what I paid:

Mid 70s Chevy 1/2 ton flattop knuckles, both sides milled = $100
Brand new Spicer ball joints = $80
Mid 70's Chevy small bearing spindles = $60
Mid 70's Chevy Caliper bracket (2 types, make sure to check this) = free
'76 Chevy 1/2 ton Disc brake calipers = $60 remanufactured and loaded.
'77 Ford F150 disc brake rotor and hub assembly = Inlcuded with axle
Partsmike offset Histeer arms = $218
6 feet 1.375"x.188" DOM tubing = $60
Poly Performance tube inserts (having issues with them) = $60
Chevy Blazer TRES (2233L, etc) = $150

Everything fits together great except for the Tube Inserts. Even before I welded them they did not fully thread, however I stupidly didn't really pay attention and welded them anyways. Now I need to tap them to get the toe into the range I need.

http://www.fototime.com/{23AC557D-1637-4B78-A4D0-104ABAAEE7BC}/picture.JPG

robselina
07-24-2004, 12:39 AM
I agree with your post to robselina... he definitely needs a skid to protect his ram.

Pic is dark but there's a 1/4" skid under the ram that comes up at a 45 degree angle. The ram is well protected.

As for hitting stuff, my usual sin was trying to climb a ledge, loosing traction and falling straight on the damn tie rod. I don't do that anymore :lol:

NorthernZJ
07-25-2004, 02:44 PM
BTW TonyK over at the pirate4x4.com is the pro driver for rockequipment.com. They run a few buggies at the professional level. You can check out his site www.rockequipment.com. I'm running their super knuckles for the D44 with their hydro system. The ram they use is the one that comes on a stock 'vette from the factory. Pretty nice little part. It has a TRE on one side which is on the axle side. I'll have some photos for you guys of my setup in a little while.

Ty

robselina
07-25-2004, 09:33 PM
..

Cody
07-26-2004, 12:51 PM
I run hydro assist, and I moved my tie rod from the bottom to the top of the knuckle. It only moved it about 1.5", but i don't hit it that often--and my tie rod is super beefy so I don't really worry about it. You can get the hydro assist ram and fittings/lines from Rock Logic for like $220. Not a bad deal.

Hydro assist is sweet BTW.

those were 42's I climbed to get to the windshield :D
http://www.fototime.com/D1F766C66387380/standard.jpg

another
http://www.fototime.com/2428CA28DBBC87F/standard.jpg

When I go to a buggy, I'm not sure what I'll do for steering. Full Hydro is the best for rock crawling, but I like to baja too and race around the dunes like a madman. Most people who drive 75+ on twisty dirt roads don't seem to think that full hydro is the best steering setup.

Cody

wkbrdr03
07-28-2004, 06:53 PM
What about non hydro steering, what would you guys recommend. I cant afford 1000 bucks. I am looking for around 500, currie, poison spyder??? any ideas?

Alaska ZJ
07-28-2004, 07:54 PM
Make your own. Hopefully Nbaldwin will post up some pictures of his setup.

He made it. And was way less than 500.

Go get some heavy Dom and buy some Tube adapters from Blue Torch Fab for TRE and just cust and paste man. YOU CAN DO IT!

Cody
07-28-2004, 09:49 PM
What about non hydro steering, what would you guys recommend. I cant afford 1000 bucks. I am looking for around 500, currie, poison spyder??? any ideas?

Non hydro steering? Who would wheel with such a thing?

I still think a shop could build you a normal 't' style steering setup for less than 500.

However, if you're set on making a shitty steering setup more HD, then I would go with the currie kit.

Cody

Jim311
07-28-2004, 10:55 PM
Make your own. Hopefully Nbaldwin will post up some pictures of his setup.

He made it. And was way less than 500.

Go get some heavy Dom and buy some Tube adapters from Blue Torch Fab for TRE and just cust and paste man. YOU CAN DO IT!


Dammit, why must you always plant these ideas in my head

:shock:


And why do you insist on choosing avatars which mesmerize me :x

luvthejeep
07-29-2004, 12:53 AM
lol- i built my sterring for 70$- lol

cut off the pitman arm tierod, adjuster and threaded end-

drilled out the kunckles to 3/4" straight hole

bought 2 rh thread 3/4" heim's and 1 lh thread with 2 jam nuts each

10 ft of sceduele 40 tubing from home depot

some 3/4 hardware

welded it all up-


lmao- its the bigest pos ive ever seen- but the truck is onthe road and running- my friend when under the jeep and kicked the tierod and bent it- lmao-

tommorow-

buying 1 1/2" .250 wall dom

some real threaded bungs

some 3/4" drilled tabs

and doing my sterring right-

it will be overly stout to make up for the shitty prototype i did- lol

Alaska ZJ
07-29-2004, 11:28 AM
Nothing wrong with a shitty prototype as long as you recognize it as such. For a first timer that is actually kinda smart. Build it out of cheap materials and get the design how you like it and then go get the more expensive materials and do it up right.

A little more expensive overall but a good learning and insurance policy with something as serious as a steering system.

Trancezj
07-29-2004, 11:55 AM
Nothing wrong with a shitty prototype as long as you recognize it as such. For a first timer that is actually kinda smart. Build it out of cheap materials and get the design how you like it and then go get the more expensive materials and do it up right.

A little more expensive overall but a good learning and insurance policy with something as serious as a steering system.
I'm scared of strong steering. The way my heap has been, the tie rod would bend before the box ripped off. Now, you'd be hard pressed to bend my tierod with a BFH. I should proll address that issue. Damnit, the exspenses keep pilling up.

Troy
07-29-2004, 02:05 PM
Now, you'd be hard pressed to bend my tierod with a BFH. I should proll address that issue. Damnit, the exspenses keep pilling up.

Right on. I'm worried about my box on the trip to Paragon this weekend. That's part of the reason I decided on hydro.

luvthejeep
07-29-2004, 04:08 PM
well i have my tubing- and bungs- as i look at it more and more- im thinking about "bending" the draglink- liek a slow "s" shape- anyone done this? it would help my clearacne issue between the sway bar axle mount and the drag link- my only problem- strength- and im not looking forward to trying to bend 1 1/2" 1/4 wall dom :shock:

Alaska ZJ
07-30-2004, 12:03 AM
I wouldn't bend it if I could help it.

nathan
07-30-2004, 01:33 AM
ES2233L Pass side tie rod end. Ream hole for drag link
ES2234R Drivers side tie rod end.
ES2027L High miss alignment draglink end. Use on pitman arm.
ES2026R Drag link end attaches to ES2233L. Some people substitute ES2234R for this end.

7/8"-18 threaded inserts from Poly Performance. 2 lefts and 2 rights.

Left and right 7/8"-18 jam nuts. Hard to find but I have a local source for $3.50 ea.

1.375x.188 wall tubing. You can slide some 1"X.120 wall inside if you want a stouter unit. I wanted to see if the tubing would bend before the knuckles break ;)

1.5"/foot reamer. I got mine through Goodson.


http://www.fototime.com/CD9A1D293AF0E3B/standard.jpg

Nathan

ROKN ZJ
08-04-2004, 12:11 PM
Here's some better pics of the double ended ram mounted pretty high on my new buggy... I haven't ever used these knuckles before so they could suck ass and break with this setup, but it still gives you an idea of how you could mount a double ended ram up high (just don't use stock knuckles with hi-steer)

http://www.offroadrepublic.com/gallery/albums/album17/abf.jpg

http://www.offroadrepublic.com/gallery/albums/album17/abg.jpg

http://www.offroadrepublic.com/gallery/albums/album17/abh.jpg

Troy
08-04-2004, 12:15 PM
That's nice looking stuff ROKN ZJ.

How do you suggest hooking the single ended ram up in my case of stock knuckles with hi-steer arms? Should I hook to the stock location?

Alaska ZJ
08-04-2004, 01:15 PM
I will be hooking to the stock location. I just don't like the looks of all that force on the upper side of the knuckle.

Now if your just using a regular power steering setup Hysteer is "ok". But I don't feel good about it being done with full or assist.

JMO.

Troy
08-04-2004, 02:13 PM
That's what we were thinking... hooking it up to the stock location.

Trancezj
08-04-2004, 02:21 PM
That's what we were thinking... hooking it up to the stock location.
I don't really think I have the need for anything besides over knuckle. And how 'bout that the 44 is already the right size for 3/4 chebby tres.

luvthejeep
08-04-2004, 02:31 PM
i got the tie rod all set- man its stout- only one problem though- my sway bar mounts are raised ones from kevin- since ive gone over knuckle they interfere with the crossover setup with my drag link- any sugestions? they bend all to shit anyways maybe should fab something up out of 1/4" angle- it would be alot stiffer- so they wont bend- what have you crossover guys done to address the situation?

Alaska ZJ
08-04-2004, 04:46 PM
i got the tie rod all set- man its stout- only one problem though- my sway bar mounts are raised ones from kevin- since ive gone over knuckle they interfere with the crossover setup with my drag link- any sugestions? they bend all to shit anyways maybe should fab something up out of 1/4" angle- it would be alot stiffer- so they wont bend- what have you crossover guys done to address the situation?

Yah cut them off and reweld them in the right spot.

luvthejeep
08-08-2004, 02:28 AM
i cut each side at about a 45 at the top bend where it arcs twards the tie rod (closest bend to the sway bar link) i fliped them and welded them up- works like a charm- i re tighened everything under the front suspension- one of the axle side lca mounts was loose- tighened it up- then i installed my ss- DEATH WOBBLE GONE! i was so suppriesd by the diffrence with the ss- but i attached the ss to the drag link- it seems like theres not enugh throw in that stock ss, it limits the steering ever so little on one side- longer ss? or am i junkyard bound? i could prolly find a decent one there-

Troy
08-09-2004, 06:58 PM
then i installed my ss- DEATH WOBBLE GONE!

Be careful... the ss is probably just masking the death wobble. Find the real solution to the wobble without the ss and work from there.

luvthejeep
08-11-2004, 01:48 AM
could camber effect it? i got a crazy amount of positve camber- fixing that tommorow- also i think i have too much toe in- the tires are feathering- no fun-

Troy
08-11-2004, 12:10 PM
could camber effect it? i got a crazy amount of positve camber- fixing that tommorow- also i think i have too much toe in- the tires are feathering- no fun-

Both of those could. Are your ball joints bad and that's why you have the camber?

luvthejeep
08-13-2004, 10:44 PM
no brand new balljoints- i brought it to a shop- they looked at how i set the toe and he was like "woah" - way too much toe- fixed the toe and the camber looks alot better now- the dw subsided significantly as well- i still feel the ity bitty shake like it wants to but i think i just need to adjust my shocks a bit (mx6's) a little firmer and i think ill be all good- thanks for the input-

luvthejeep
08-17-2004, 01:49 PM
here are pics of the steering i rigged up-
http://loosenut.sytes.net/images/jeeppic/jeepcomp/IMG_3383%20(Small).JPG

1.5" x .250 wall dom tierod, scd40 draglink- getting upgraded when i have time- thats when ill make a more permanate mount for the ss-

http://loosenut.sytes.net/images/jeeppic/jeepcomp/IMG_3384%20(Small).JPG

this is waht i did for the drag link mount- instad fo welding tabs to the tierod, i took a sed 80 conector- slotted it, but bolts on the slotted side so it can clamp, then welded the tabs to that- this way i can set my toe and my drag link angle independently

http://loosenut.sytes.net/images/jeeppic/jeepcomp/IMG_3385%20(Small).JPG